[1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial

Mon Dec 18 11:00:27 PST 2017

How the signal moves on the copper doesn't matter much at those frequencies
if the copper is in good shape, but waveguide implies that the signal sort
of gets losslessly reflected by the inside surface of the copper. It's more
an interaction of the mmwave signal's fields with the copper and its own
(or induced) fields. The device input and output gets clamped onto the wire
from the outside. This is not lossless as a "waveguide" would imply. The
field extends outside and has to interact with the copper. Hence losses.

Gawd, I still remember soldering and bending hollow lab waveguides for 2cm
signals -- at the incredible frequency range of 1 to 2 Ghz.

In this kind of deployment, where you have to raise a bucket at every pole
or every few poles or every 10 poles to install the electronics, and the
electronics have to be powered and maintained, how is this (in general)
vastly cheaper than fiber? Even if the capex is marginally lower, the opex
will be higher. Capex for a device full of electronics  has to be more than
capex for a few hundred feet of fiber, I would think.

Steve Ross
Editor-at-Large, Broadband Communities Magazine (www.bbcmag.com)
201-456-5933 mobile
707-WOW-SSR3 (707-969-7773) Google Voice
editorsteve (Facebook, LinkedIn)
editorsteve1 (Twitter)
steve at bbcmag.com
editorsteve at gmail.com

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 1:51 PM, John Osmon <josmon at rigozsaurus.com> wrote:

> Waveguides can channel sound and electromagnetic waves -- but the
> waveguide material isn't used as a conductor.  Microwave antennas
> are often connected to their transmitter/receiver via hollow tubes.
> The tubes are the waveguides.
>
> Fiber optics cables are waveguides as well.
>
> Evidently, the characteristics of the powerlines allow for guiding the
> transmissions -- but the articles I've found aren't that forthcoming
> with just how this occurs, nor how important it is to the "new" type of
> broadband over powerline.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 12:52:44PM -0500, Steve Cimelli wrote:
> > Frank:   I’m not understanding statement a) below:
> >
> > uses:
> > a) wireless backhaul along power lines with power lines acting as wave
> guides
> >
> > When I think of wireless backhaul along power lines I think of
> line-of-site radio transmitter/
> > receivers placed on power poles spaced based upon the frequency,
> line-of-site, weather condition
> > requirements, etc.
> >
> > When I think of power lines acting as wave guides, I think of metal
> conductors (for power
> > tranmission) that have information coded as electromagnetic energy on
> them.   Still needing
> > to deal with all of the electro-stuff that got deployed, often over
> several generations of technology
> > (fewer green-field installations one would suppose over years of
> evolution of maintenance upgrades,
> > etc.).    What am I missing here?
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2017, at 12:20 PM, <frank at wmxsystems.com> <
> frank at wmxsystems.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All!
> >
> > Actually, it has nothing to do with copper/transmission/distribution
> lines. Its 5G wireless (up to 1 Gbps speeds to end user) that uses:
> > a) wireless backhaul along power lines with power lines acting as wave
> guides
> > b) last mile distribution with access points on top of power poles
> >
> > I think its very clever in that it solves:
> > a) backhaul - MUCH cheaper than fiber
> > b) last mile issues made simple given pole attachment agreements that
> AT&T has
> > c) if an autonomous vehicle will require 4 Tbps/day,how is that need
> met? Answer: from the power lines that parallel most roads
> >
> > While AT&T may have propriety vendors/patents, etc., its not rocket
> science to build a wireless network on top of a power grid (I'm thinking
> the generic "Farmers Co-op Electric" meets rural ISP = rural broadband
> problem solved). Of course there are major safety issues in that power
> linemen would have to do all installs and maintenance, and the many
> advantages of having backhaul plus poles to attach access points too
> contribute to ease of planning and deployment.
> >
> > Read more at:
> >
> > http://about.att.com/newsroom/att_to_test_delivering_multi_
> gigabit_wireless_internet_speeds_using_power_lines.html <
> http://about.att.com/newsroom/att_to_test_delivering_multi_gigabit_
> wireless_internet_speeds_using_power_lines.html>
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
> > From: John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com <mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com
> >>
> > Date: Mon, December 18, 2017 9:58 am
> > To: Steve Ross <editorsteve at gmail.com <mailto:editorsteve at gmail.com>>
> > Cc: 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org <mailto:
> 1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>>
> >
> > Good information, thanks.
> >
> > John
> >
> > From: Steve Ross [mailto:editorsteve at gmail.com <mailto:
> editorsteve at gmail.com>]
> > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 9:57 AM
> > To: John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com <mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>
> > Cc: John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com <mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com>>;
> 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org <mailto:1st-mile-nm at mailman.
> dcn.org>>
> > Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
> >
> > AT&T has a big patent portfolio on this -- mainly ways to make the
> devices cheaply. The idea is to insert very high frequency signals on
> copper by clamping a transmitter on the wire, every few telephone poles
> along the line. This gets around the key problem that high frequency
> signals don't carry very far on copper. With Airgig, they get refreshed
> every few hundred feet. The (potentially) little refresh/relay devices on
> the poles would also broadcast to nearby premises and the roadway,
> replacing a physical drop.
> >
> > They also have variants that can be used on poles as needed to get
> around transformers and other devices that can screw up signals.
> >
> > This is quite different from the old BOP ideas around 2003-4 that
> inserted much lower frequency signals on devices much farther apart. We're
> talking 5+ and even 30+ Ghz now, 100 Mhz then.
> >
> > Even with the short copper runs between signal refresh, the copper has
> to be in good shape. Latency is pretty high along the network as a whole,
> and that can be a problem for driverless vehicles, which would probably use
> 802.11p to communicate with the little antennas that sit on the poles with
> the refresh circuitry. (Where 5G is installed, cars would presumably use
> cellular transmissions, not Ethernet 11p directly; ATT has a current test
> on that using 4G down in San Diego.) Unless conditions are ideal, the costs
> climb to where fiber would be easier, especially once you look at opex....
> >
> > I would see a lot of trouble with using this on a transmission line
> above 880 V or even above 440 V just because the insulation and isolation
> issues get dicey and expensive; 440V would probably be the norm, though.
> Also, big transmission lines usually have fiber alongside anyway. But there
> is no theoretical reason why this would not work on big DC lines, except
> that the tower spacing is greater.
> >
> > We at Broadband Communities tend to think of these sorts of things in
> business terms. If the market is big enough, the devices can be
> multi-sourced and made cheaply. But no one solution seems ideal for huge
> swaths of problems. These are things that bring about 5 or 10% more
> business cases into the money. And that is GREAT! We have not talked about
> this much at the magazine, so these opinions are my own.
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve Ross
> > Editor-at-Large, Broadband Communities Magazine (www.bbcmag.com <
> http://www.bbcmag.com/>)
> > 201-456-5933 mobile
> > 707-WOW-SSR3 (707-969-7773) Google Voice
> > editorsteve (Facebook, LinkedIn)
> > editorsteve1 (Twitter)
> > steve at bbcmag.com <mailto:steve at bbcmag.com>
> > editorsteve at gmail.com <mailto:editorsteve at gmail.com>
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:08 AM, John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com
> <mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com>> wrote:
> > I think you’re right.  I just remember that Edison favored DC.  Guess he
> lost.
> >
> > John
> >
> > From: John Brown [mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com <mailto:
> john at citylinkfiber.com>]
> > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 8:52 AM
> > To: John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com <mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>
> > Cc: David Breecker [dba] <david at breeckerassociates.com <mailto:david@
> breeckerassociates.com>>; 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org
> <mailto:1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>>
> > Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
> >
> > Aren't our power grids AC  ??
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 8:48 AM, John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com
> <mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com>> wrote:
> > I looked at this a few years ago, visiting with a former Sandia Labs
> expert on the matter, and concluded then that the technology was nowhere
> near acceptable in the U.S.  Older power equipment in rural areas and the
> number of transponders seemed to be just one hurdle.  Signal loss is
> another.  If I recall one overriding issue, with our DC electric power
> grids that require a power transformer every specified distance, Broadband
> Over Powerline (BBPL) will require corrective equipment at every
> transformer, not just at the switch and customer premise.  I’m eager to see
> what AT&T comes up with.  It’ll take a deep pockets company to figure this
> out.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> > From: 1st-mile-nm [mailto:1st-mile-nm-bounces at mailman.dcn.org <mailto:
> 1st-mile-nm-bounces at mailman.dcn.org>] On Behalf Of David Breecker [dba]
> > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 2:52 PM
> > To: 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org <mailto:
> 1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>>
> > Subject: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
> >
> > I’m curious to know if anyone knows anything about the effectiveness of
> this technology in its current state:
> >
> > https://na.smartcitiescouncil.com/article/how-internet-over-
> power-lines-could-be-solution-underserved-communities <https://na.
> smartcitiescouncil.com/article/how-internet-over-
> power-lines-could-be-solution-underserved-communities>
> >
> > David Breecker,
> > President
> >
> >
> > David Breecker Associates
> > www.breeckerassociates.com <http://www.breeckerassociates.com/>
> >
> > Santa Fe Office: 505-690-2335 <tel:(505)%20690-2335>
> > Abiquiu Office:   505-685-4891 <tel:(505)%20685-4891>
> > Skype:  dbreecker
> >
> >
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