<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Frank: I’m not understanding statement a) below:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;">uses:</div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;">a) <font color="#0433ff" class="">wireless backhaul along power lines</font> <font color="#299f21" class="">with power lines acting as wave guides</font></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;">When I think of wireless backhaul along power lines I think of line-of-site radio transmitter/</div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">receivers placed on power poles spaced based upon the frequency, line-of-site, weather condition</span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">requirements, etc. </span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">When I think of power lines acting as wave guides, I think of metal conductors (for power </span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">tranmission) that have information coded as electromagnetic energy on them. Still needing</span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">to deal with all of the electro-stuff that got deployed, often over several generations of technology</span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">(fewer green-field installations one would suppose over years of evolution of maintenance upgrades,</span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">etc.). What am I missing here?</span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Steve</span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""> </span></div><div class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana, geneva;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""> </span></div><div><div class="">On Dec 18, 2017, at 12:20 PM, <<a href="mailto:frank@wmxsystems.com" class="">frank@wmxsystems.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:frank@wmxsystems.com" class="">frank@wmxsystems.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><!-- wmLetter_head_start -->
<table align="center" style="empty-cells: show;" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" class=""><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="vertical-align: top;" class=""><div style="padding: 5px; overflow-x: auto;" class=""><!-- wmLetter_head_end --><div class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Hi All!</div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Actually, it has nothing to do with copper/transmission/distribution lines. Its 5G wireless (up to 1 Gbps speeds to end user) that uses:</div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class="">a) wireless backhaul along power lines with power lines acting as wave guides</div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class="">b) last mile distribution with access points on top of power poles</div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class="">I think its very clever in that it solves:</div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class="">a) backhaul - MUCH cheaper than fiber</div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class="">b) last mile issues made simple given pole attachment agreements that AT&T has</div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class="">c) if an autonomous vehicle will require 4 Tbps/day,how is that need met? Answer: from the power lines that parallel most roads</div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class="">While AT&T may have propriety vendors/patents, etc., its not rocket science to build a wireless network on top of a power grid (I'm thinking the generic "Farmers Co-op Electric" meets rural ISP = rural broadband problem solved). Of course there are major safety issues in that power linemen would have to do all installs and maintenance, and the many advantages of having backhaul plus poles to attach access points too contribute to ease of planning and deployment.</div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Read more at:</div><div style="font-family: verdana, geneva; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="" class=""><font face="verdana, geneva" style="" class=""><span style="" class=""><a href="http://about.att.com/newsroom/att_to_test_delivering_multi_gigabit_wireless_internet_speeds_using_power_lines.html" class="">http://about.att.com/newsroom/att_to_test_delivering_multi_gigabit_wireless_internet_speeds_using_power_lines.html</a></span></font></div><div style="" class=""><font face="verdana, geneva" style="" class=""><span style="" class=""><br class=""></span></font></div><div style="" class=""><font face="verdana, geneva" style="" class=""><span style="" class=""><br class=""></span></font></div><blockquote id="replyBlockquote" webmail="1" style="font-family: verdana; font-size: 10pt; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; margin-left: 8px; padding-left: 8px;" class="">
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-------- Original Message --------<br class="">
Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial<br class="">
From: John Badal <<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" class="">JBadal@sacred-wind.com</a>><br class="">
Date: Mon, December 18, 2017 9:58 am<br class="">
To: Steve Ross <<a href="mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com" class="">editorsteve@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
Cc: 1st-Mile-NM <<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" class="">1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org</a>><br class="">
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</style> <div class="WordSection1"> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">Good information, thanks.<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">John<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b class="">From:</b> Steve Ross [<a href="mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com" class="">mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com</a>] <br class=""> <b class="">Sent:</b> Monday, December 18, 2017 9:57 AM<br class=""> <b class="">To:</b> John Badal <<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" class="">JBadal@sacred-wind.com</a>><br class=""> <b class="">Cc:</b> John Brown <<a href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" class="">john@citylinkfiber.com</a>>; 1st-Mile-NM <<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" class="">1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org</a>><br class=""> <b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">AT&T has a big patent portfolio on this -- mainly ways to make the devices cheaply. The idea is to insert very high frequency signals on copper by clamping a transmitter on the wire, every few telephone poles along the line. This gets around the key problem that high frequency signals don't carry very far on copper. With Airgig, they get refreshed every few hundred feet. The (potentially) little refresh/relay devices on the poles would also broadcast to nearby premises and the roadway, replacing a physical drop.<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">They also have variants that can be used on poles as needed to get around transformers and other devices that can screw up signals.<o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">This is quite different from the old BOP ideas around 2003-4 that inserted much lower frequency signals on devices much farther apart. We're talking 5+ and even 30+ Ghz now, 100 Mhz then.<o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">Even with the short copper runs between signal refresh, the copper has to be in good shape. Latency is pretty high along the network as a whole, and that can be a problem for driverless vehicles, which would probably use 802.11p to communicate with the little antennas that sit on the poles with the refresh circuitry. (Where 5G is installed, cars would presumably use cellular transmissions, not Ethernet 11p directly; ATT has a current test on that using 4G down in San Diego.) Unless conditions are ideal, the costs climb to where fiber would be easier, especially once you look at opex....<o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">I would see a lot of trouble with using this on a transmission line above 880 V or even above 440 V just because the insulation and isolation issues get dicey and expensive; 440V would probably be the norm, though. Also, big transmission lines usually have fiber alongside anyway. But there is no theoretical reason why this would not work on big DC lines, except that the tower spacing is greater.<o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">We at Broadband Communities tend to think of these sorts of things in business terms. If the market is big enough, the devices can be multi-sourced and made cheaply. But no one solution seems ideal for huge swaths of problems. These are things that bring about 5 or 10% more business cases into the money. And that is GREAT! We have not talked about this much at the magazine, so these opinions are my own.<o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><br clear="all" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br class=""> <br class=""> Steve Ross<br class=""> Editor-at-Large, Broadband Communities Magazine (<a href="http://www.bbcmag.com/" target="_blank" class="">www.bbcmag.com</a>)<br class=""> 201-456-5933 mobile<br class=""> 707-WOW-SSR3 (707-969-7773) Google Voice<br class=""> editorsteve (Facebook, LinkedIn)<br class=""> editorsteve1 (Twitter)<br class=""> <a href="mailto:steve@bbcmag.com" target="_blank" class="">steve@bbcmag.com</a><br class=""> <a href="mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">editorsteve@gmail.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:08 AM, John Badal <<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank" class="">JBadal@sacred-wind.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" class=""> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I think you’re right. I just remember that Edison favored DC. Guess he lost.<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">John<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b class="">From:</b> John Brown [mailto:<a href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" target="_blank" class="">john@citylinkfiber.com</a>] <br class=""> <b class="">Sent:</b> Monday, December 18, 2017 8:52 AM<br class=""> <b class="">To:</b> John Badal <<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank" class="">JBadal@sacred-wind.com</a>><br class=""> <b class="">Cc:</b> David Breecker [dba] <<a href="mailto:david@breeckerassociates.com" target="_blank" class="">david@breeckerassociates.com</a>>; 1st-Mile-NM <<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank" class="">1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org</a>><br class=""> <b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Aren't our power grids AC ?? <o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 8:48 AM, John Badal <<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank" class="">JBadal@sacred-wind.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=""> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I looked at this a few years ago, visiting with a former Sandia Labs expert on the matter, and concluded then that the technology was nowhere near acceptable in the U.S. Older power equipment in rural areas and the number of transponders seemed to be just one hurdle. Signal loss is another. If I recall one overriding issue, with our DC electric power grids that require a power transformer every specified distance, Broadband Over Powerline (BBPL) will require corrective equipment at every transformer, not just at the switch and customer premise. I’m eager to see what AT&T comes up with. It’ll take a deep pockets company to figure this out.<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">John<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class=""> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in" class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b class="">From:</b> 1st-mile-nm [mailto:<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm-bounces@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank" class="">1st-mile-nm-bounces@mailman.dcn.org</a>] <b class="">On Behalf Of </b>David Breecker [dba]<br class=""> <b class="">Sent:</b> Friday, December 15, 2017 2:52 PM<br class=""> <b class="">To:</b> 1st-Mile-NM <<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank" class="">1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org</a>><br class=""> <b class="">Subject:</b> [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial<o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I’m curious to know if anyone knows anything about the effectiveness of this technology in its current state:<o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="https://na.smartcitiescouncil.com/article/how-internet-over-power-lines-could-be-solution-underserved-communities" target="_blank" class="">https://na.smartcitiescouncil.com/article/how-internet-over-power-lines-could-be-solution-underserved-communities</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">David Breecker,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">President</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b class=""><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#0433FF" class=""><br class=""> David Breecker Associates</span></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b class=""><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#0433FF" class=""><a href="http://www.breeckerassociates.com/" target="_blank" class="">www.breeckerassociates.com</a></span></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Santa Fe Office: <a href="tel:(505)%20690-2335" target="_blank" class="">505-690-2335</a></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Abiquiu Office: <a href="tel:(505)%20685-4891" target="_blank" class="">505-685-4891</a></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> <div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Skype: dbreecker</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br class=""> _______________________________________________<br class=""> 1st-mile-nm mailing list<br class=""> <a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank" class="">1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org</a><br class=""> <a href="http://www2.dcn.org/mailman/listinfo/1st-mile-nm" target="_blank" class="">http://www2.dcn.org/mailman/listinfo/1st-mile-nm</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </blockquote> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br class=""> _______________________________________________<br class=""> 1st-mile-nm mailing list<br class=""> <a target="_blank" href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" class="">1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org</a><br class=""> <a href="http://www2.dcn.org/mailman/listinfo/1st-mile-nm" target="_blank" class="">http://www2.dcn.org/mailman/listinfo/1st-mile-nm</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div> </blockquote> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div> </div> </div> </div> <hr class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">
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