<div dir="ltr">So the conductors form a kind of half-waveguide -- perhaps more like a quarter. What kind of efficiency gain might this have over a free-field PtP link?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 12:38 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:frank@wmxsystems.com" target="_blank">frank@wmxsystems.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<table align="center" style="empty-cells:show" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="vertical-align:top"><div style="padding:5px;overflow-x:auto"><div><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#000;font-size:10pt"><div>I confess: my understanding is no deeper than the explanation John provides. :) Very simply put: on a point to point microwave shot with Point A being one micrwave radio mounted on the top of a transmission pole and Point B being the receiving radio also mounted on a transmission pole some miles distant along the transmission line, the fresnel zone or concentration of the waves remains along/around the transmission line rather than dissipating into the atmosphere. I speculate that there is some optimization for this built into the radios and antennas of the backhaul radio system, otherwise there might be some harmful interference from the power lines. </div><div><br></div><div>The transmission wires themselves do not actively carry any signals, just "guide" them.<br><br></div>
<blockquote id="m_-1181799410514793651replyBlockquote" style="border-left:2px solid blue;margin-left:8px;padding-left:8px;font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:verdana">
<div id="m_-1181799410514793651wmQuoteWrapper"><span class="">
-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial<br></span><div><div class="h5">
From: John Osmon <<a href="mailto:josmon@rigozsaurus.com" target="_blank">josmon@rigozsaurus.com</a>><br>
Date: Mon, December 18, 2017 11:51 am<br>
To: 1st-Mile-NM <<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank">1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org</a>><br>
<br>
Waveguides can channel sound and electromagnetic waves -- but the<br>
waveguide material isn't used as a conductor. Microwave antennas<br>
are often connected to their transmitter/receiver via hollow tubes.<br>
The tubes are the waveguides.<br>
<br>
Fiber optics cables are waveguides as well.<br>
<br>
Evidently, the characteristics of the powerlines allow for guiding the <br>
transmissions -- but the articles I've found aren't that forthcoming<br>
with just how this occurs, nor how important it is to the "new" type of<br>
broadband over powerline.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 12:52:44PM -0500, Steve Cimelli wrote:<br>
> Frank: I’m not understanding statement a) below:<br>
> <br>
> uses:<br>
> a) wireless backhaul along power lines with power lines acting as wave guides<br>
> <br>
> When I think of wireless backhaul along power lines I think of line-of-site radio transmitter/<br>
> receivers placed on power poles spaced based upon the frequency, line-of-site, weather condition<br>
> requirements, etc. <br>
> <br>
> When I think of power lines acting as wave guides, I think of metal conductors (for power <br>
> tranmission) that have information coded as electromagnetic energy on them. Still needing<br>
> to deal with all of the electro-stuff that got deployed, often over several generations of technology<br>
> (fewer green-field installations one would suppose over years of evolution of maintenance upgrades,<br>
> etc.). What am I missing here?<br>
> <br>
> Steve<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Dec 18, 2017, at 12:20 PM, <<a href="mailto:frank@wmxsystems.com" target="_blank">frank@wmxsystems.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:frank@wmxsystems.com" target="_blank">frank@wmxsystems.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Hi All!<br>
> <br>
> Actually, it has nothing to do with copper/transmission/<wbr>distribution lines. Its 5G wireless (up to 1 Gbps speeds to end user) that uses:<br>
> a) wireless backhaul along power lines with power lines acting as wave guides<br>
> b) last mile distribution with access points on top of power poles<br>
> <br>
> I think its very clever in that it solves:<br>
> a) backhaul - MUCH cheaper than fiber<br>
> b) last mile issues made simple given pole attachment agreements that AT&T has<br>
> c) if an autonomous vehicle will require 4 Tbps/day,how is that need met? Answer: from the power lines that parallel most roads<br>
> <br>
> While AT&T may have propriety vendors/patents, etc., its not rocket science to build a wireless network on top of a power grid (I'm thinking the generic "Farmers Co-op Electric" meets rural ISP = rural broadband problem solved). Of course there are major safety issues in that power linemen would have to do all installs and maintenance, and the many advantages of having backhaul plus poles to attach access points too contribute to ease of planning and deployment.<br>
> <br>
> Read more at:<br>
> <br>
> <a href="http://about.att.com/newsroom/att_to_test_delivering_multi_gigabit_wireless_internet_speeds_using_power_lines.html" target="_blank">http://about.att.com/newsroom/<wbr>att_to_test_delivering_multi_<wbr>gigabit_wireless_internet_<wbr>speeds_using_power_lines.html</a> <<a href="http://about.att.com/newsroom/att_to_test_delivering_multi_gigabit_wireless_internet_speeds_using_power_lines.html" target="_blank">http://about.att.com/<wbr>newsroom/att_to_test_<wbr>delivering_multi_gigabit_<wbr>wireless_internet_speeds_<wbr>using_power_lines.html</a>><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -------- Original Message --------<br>
> Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial<br>
> From: John Badal <<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank">JBadal@sacred-wind.com</a> ><<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank">mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.<wbr>com</a>>><br>
> Date: Mon, December 18, 2017 9:58 am<br>
> To: Steve Ross <<a href="mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com" target="_blank">editorsteve@gmail.com</a> ><<a href="mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com</a><wbr>>><br>
> Cc: 1st-Mile-NM <<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank">1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org</a> ><<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank">mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.<wbr>dcn.org</a>>><br>
> <br>
> Good information, thanks.<br>
> <br>
> John<br>
> <br>
> From: Steve Ross [<a href="mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com</a>><wbr>] <br>
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 9:57 AM<br>
> To: John Badal <<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank">JBadal@sacred-wind.com</a> ><<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank">mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.<wbr>com</a>>><br>
> Cc: John Brown <<a href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" target="_blank">john@citylinkfiber.com</a> ><<a href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" target="_blank">mailto:john@citylinkfiber.<wbr>com</a>>>; 1st-Mile-NM <<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank">1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org</a> ><<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank">mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.<wbr>dcn.org</a>>><br>
> Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial<br>
> <br>
> AT&T has a big patent portfolio on this -- mainly ways to make the devices cheaply. The idea is to insert very high frequency signals on copper by clamping a transmitter on the wire, every few telephone poles along the line. This gets around the key problem that high frequency signals don't carry very far on copper. With Airgig, they get refreshed every few hundred feet. The (potentially) little refresh/relay devices on the poles would also broadcast to nearby premises and the roadway, replacing a physical drop.<br>
> <br>
> They also have variants that can be used on poles as needed to get around transformers and other devices that can screw up signals.<br>
> <br>
> This is quite different from the old BOP ideas around 2003-4 that inserted much lower frequency signals on devices much farther apart. We're talking 5+ and even 30+ Ghz now, 100 Mhz then.<br>
> <br>
> Even with the short copper runs between signal refresh, the copper has to be in good shape. Latency is pretty high along the network as a whole, and that can be a problem for driverless vehicles, which would probably use 802.11p to communicate with the little antennas that sit on the poles with the refresh circuitry. (Where 5G is installed, cars would presumably use cellular transmissions, not Ethernet 11p directly; ATT has a current test on that using 4G down in San Diego.) Unless conditions are ideal, the costs climb to where fiber would be easier, especially once you look at opex....<br>
> <br>
> I would see a lot of trouble with using this on a transmission line above 880 V or even above 440 V just because the insulation and isolation issues get dicey and expensive; 440V would probably be the norm, though. Also, big transmission lines usually have fiber alongside anyway. But there is no theoretical reason why this would not work on big DC lines, except that the tower spacing is greater.<br>
> <br>
> We at Broadband Communities tend to think of these sorts of things in business terms. If the market is big enough, the devices can be multi-sourced and made cheaply. But no one solution seems ideal for huge swaths of problems. These are things that bring about 5 or 10% more business cases into the money. And that is GREAT! We have not talked about this much at the magazine, so these opinions are my own.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Steve Ross<br>
> Editor-at-Large, Broadband Communities Magazine (<a href="http://www.bbcmag.com" target="_blank">www.bbcmag.com</a> <http://<a href="http://www.bbcmag.com" target="_blank">www.bbcmag.com</a>/>)<br>
> <a href="tel:(201)%20456-5933" value="+12014565933" target="_blank">201-456-5933</a> mobile<br>
> 707-WOW-SSR3 <a href="tel:(707)%20969-7773" value="+17079697773" target="_blank">(707-969-7773</a>) Google Voice<br>
> editorsteve (Facebook, LinkedIn)<br>
> editorsteve1 (Twitter)<br>
> <a href="mailto:steve@bbcmag.com" target="_blank">steve@bbcmag.com</a> <<a href="mailto:steve@bbcmag.com" target="_blank">mailto:steve@bbcmag.com</a>><br>
> <a href="mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com" target="_blank">editorsteve@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:editorsteve@gmail.com</a>><br>
> <br>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:08 AM, John Badal <<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank">JBadal@sacred-wind.com</a> ><<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank">mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.<wbr>com</a>>> wrote:<br>
> I think you’re right. I just remember that Edison favored DC. Guess he lost.<br>
> <br>
> John<br>
> <br>
> From: John Brown [<a href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" target="_blank">mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com</a> <<a href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" target="_blank">mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com</a><wbr>>] <br>
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 8:52 AM<br>
> To: John Badal <<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank">JBadal@sacred-wind.com</a> ><<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank">mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.<wbr>com</a>>><br>
> Cc: David Breecker [dba] <<a href="mailto:david@breeckerassociates.com" target="_blank">david@breeckerassociates.com</a> ><<a href="mailto:david@breeckerassociates.com" target="_blank">mailto:david@<wbr>breeckerassociates.com</a>>>; 1st-Mile-NM <<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank">1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org</a> ><<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank">mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.<wbr>dcn.org</a>>><br>
> Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial<br>
> <br>
> Aren't our power grids AC ?? <br>
> <br>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 8:48 AM, John Badal <<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank">JBadal@sacred-wind.com</a> ><<a href="mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.com" target="_blank">mailto:JBadal@sacred-wind.<wbr>com</a>>> wrote:<br>
> I looked at this a few years ago, visiting with a former Sandia Labs expert on the matter, and concluded then that the technology was nowhere near acceptable in the U.S. Older power equipment in rural areas and the number of transponders seemed to be just one hurdle. Signal loss is another. If I recall one overriding issue, with our DC electric power grids that require a power transformer every specified distance, Broadband Over Powerline (BBPL) will require corrective equipment at every transformer, not just at the switch and customer premise. I’m eager to see what AT&T comes up with. It’ll take a deep pockets company to figure this out.<br>
> <br>
> John<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> From: 1st-mile-nm [<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm-bounces@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank">mailto:1st-mile-nm-bounces@<wbr>mailman.dcn.org</a> <<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm-bounces@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank">mailto:1st-mile-nm-bounces@<wbr>mailman.dcn.org</a>>] On Behalf Of David Breecker [dba]<br>
> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 2:52 PM<br>
> To: 1st-Mile-NM <<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank">1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org</a> ><<a href="mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.dcn.org" target="_blank">mailto:1st-mile-nm@mailman.<wbr>dcn.org</a>>><br>
> Subject: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial<br>
> <br>
> I’m curious to know if anyone knows anything about the effectiveness of this technology in its current state:<br>
> <br>
> <a href="https://na.smartcitiescouncil.com/article/how-internet-over-power-lines-could-be-solution-underserved-communities" target="_blank">https://na.smartcitiescouncil.<wbr>com/article/how-internet-over-<wbr>power-lines-could-be-solution-<wbr>underserved-communities</a> <<a href="https://na.smartcitiescouncil.com/article/how-internet-over-power-lines-could-be-solution-underserved-communities" target="_blank">https://na.<wbr>smartcitiescouncil.com/<wbr>article/how-internet-over-<wbr>power-lines-could-be-solution-<wbr>underserved-communities</a>><br>
> <br>
> David Breecker,<br>
> President<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> David Breecker Associates<br>
> <a href="http://www.breeckerassociates.com" target="_blank">www.breeckerassociates.com</a> <<a href="http://www.breeckerassociates.com/" target="_blank">http://www.<wbr>breeckerassociates.com/</a>><br>
> <br>
> Santa Fe Office: <a href="tel:(505)%20690-2335" value="+15056902335" target="_blank">505-690-2335</a> <tel:(505)%20690-2335><br>
> Abiquiu Office: <a href="tel:(505)%20685-4891" value="+15056854891" target="_blank">505-685-4891</a> <tel:(505)%20685-4891><br>
> Skype: dbreecker<br>
> <br>
> <br>
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</blockquote></span></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style="text-align:left;background-repeat:no-repeat" align="left" height="94" colspan="1"><img src="cid:bottom@d70bd23c08661d6421d3d3a6e1fa4ea3"></td></tr></tbody></table><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><pre cols="72"><span style="background-color:rgb(153,153,153)"><span></span></span>Kurt Albershardt | Mimbres Communications, LLC | 575-342-0042</pre>
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