[1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial

Tue Dec 19 08:00:59 PST 2017

Airgig has better reliability in bad weather, and uses the existing
physical pathway through dense foliage, if it exists. Also doubles as
connection for driverless vehicles -- which somehow will be a revenue
source. MAYBE higher bandwidth than P2P (P2P can do 2 Gbps in common
arrangements with 0.5 mile hops, although it can go 2 miles per hop.)

But P2P and P2M (multipoint) will have generally lower latency, often lower
cost and certainly lower opex.

That's why I say all these technologies have a place. No silver bullet.

Steve Ross
Editor-at-Large, Broadband Communities Magazine (www.bbcmag.com)
201-456-5933 mobile
707-WOW-SSR3 (707-969-7773) Google Voice
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editorsteve1 (Twitter)
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editorsteve at gmail.com

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:56 PM, Mimbres Communications <mimcom at sw-ei.com>
wrote:

> So the conductors form a kind of half-waveguide -- perhaps more like a
> quarter.  What kind of efficiency gain might this have over a free-field
> PtP link?
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 12:38 PM, <frank at wmxsystems.com> wrote:
>
>> I confess: my understanding is no deeper than the explanation John
>> provides. :)  Very simply put: on a point to point microwave shot with
>> Point A being one micrwave radio mounted on the top of a transmission pole
>> and Point B being the receiving radio also mounted on a transmission pole
>> some miles distant along the transmission line, the fresnel zone or
>> concentration of the waves remains along/around the transmission line
>> rather than dissipating into the atmosphere. I speculate that there is some
>> optimization for this built into the radios and antennas of the backhaul
>> radio system, otherwise there might be some harmful interference from the
>> power lines.
>>
>> The transmission wires themselves do not actively carry any signals, just
>> "guide" them.
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
>> From: John Osmon <josmon at rigozsaurus.com>
>> Date: Mon, December 18, 2017 11:51 am
>> To: 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>
>>
>> Waveguides can channel sound and electromagnetic waves -- but the
>> waveguide material isn't used as a conductor. Microwave antennas
>> are often connected to their transmitter/receiver via hollow tubes.
>> The tubes are the waveguides.
>>
>> Fiber optics cables are waveguides as well.
>>
>> Evidently, the characteristics of the powerlines allow for guiding the
>> transmissions -- but the articles I've found aren't that forthcoming
>> with just how this occurs, nor how important it is to the "new" type of
>> broadband over powerline.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 12:52:44PM -0500, Steve Cimelli wrote:
>> > Frank: I’m not understanding statement a) below:
>> >
>> > uses:
>> > a) wireless backhaul along power lines with power lines acting as wave
>> guides
>> >
>> > When I think of wireless backhaul along power lines I think of
>> line-of-site radio transmitter/
>> > receivers placed on power poles spaced based upon the frequency,
>> line-of-site, weather condition
>> > requirements, etc.
>> >
>> > When I think of power lines acting as wave guides, I think of metal
>> conductors (for power
>> > tranmission) that have information coded as electromagnetic energy on
>> them. Still needing
>> > to deal with all of the electro-stuff that got deployed, often over
>> several generations of technology
>> > (fewer green-field installations one would suppose over years of
>> evolution of maintenance upgrades,
>> > etc.). What am I missing here?
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Dec 18, 2017, at 12:20 PM, <frank at wmxsystems.com> <
>> frank at wmxsystems.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi All!
>> >
>> > Actually, it has nothing to do with copper/transmission/distribution
>> lines. Its 5G wireless (up to 1 Gbps speeds to end user) that uses:
>> > a) wireless backhaul along power lines with power lines acting as wave
>> guides
>> > b) last mile distribution with access points on top of power poles
>> >
>> > I think its very clever in that it solves:
>> > a) backhaul - MUCH cheaper than fiber
>> > b) last mile issues made simple given pole attachment agreements that
>> AT&T has
>> > c) if an autonomous vehicle will require 4 Tbps/day,how is that need
>> met? Answer: from the power lines that parallel most roads
>> >
>> > While AT&T may have propriety vendors/patents, etc., its not rocket
>> science to build a wireless network on top of a power grid (I'm thinking
>> the generic "Farmers Co-op Electric" meets rural ISP = rural broadband
>> problem solved). Of course there are major safety issues in that power
>> linemen would have to do all installs and maintenance, and the many
>> advantages of having backhaul plus poles to attach access points too
>> contribute to ease of planning and deployment.
>> >
>> > Read more at:
>> >
>> > http://about.att.com/newsroom/att_to_test_delivering_multi_g
>> igabit_wireless_internet_speeds_using_power_lines.html <
>> http://about.att.com/newsroom/att_to_test_delivering_multi_
>> gigabit_wireless_internet_speeds_using_power_lines.html>
>> >
>> >
>> > -------- Original Message --------
>> > Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
>> > From: John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com ><mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.co
>> m <JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>>
>> > Date: Mon, December 18, 2017 9:58 am
>> > To: Steve Ross <editorsteve at gmail.com ><mailto:editorsteve at gmail.com
>> <editorsteve at gmail.com>>>
>> > Cc: 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org ><
>> mailto:1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>>>
>> >
>> > Good information, thanks.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> > From: Steve Ross [mailto:editorsteve at gmail.com <editorsteve at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:editorsteve at gmail.com <editorsteve at gmail.com>>]
>> > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 9:57 AM
>> > To: John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com ><mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com
>> <JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>>
>> > Cc: John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com ><mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com
>> <john at citylinkfiber.com>>>; 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org ><
>> mailto:1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>>>
>> > Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
>> >
>> > AT&T has a big patent portfolio on this -- mainly ways to make the
>> devices cheaply. The idea is to insert very high frequency signals on
>> copper by clamping a transmitter on the wire, every few telephone poles
>> along the line. This gets around the key problem that high frequency
>> signals don't carry very far on copper. With Airgig, they get refreshed
>> every few hundred feet. The (potentially) little refresh/relay devices on
>> the poles would also broadcast to nearby premises and the roadway,
>> replacing a physical drop.
>> >
>> > They also have variants that can be used on poles as needed to get
>> around transformers and other devices that can screw up signals.
>> >
>> > This is quite different from the old BOP ideas around 2003-4 that
>> inserted much lower frequency signals on devices much farther apart. We're
>> talking 5+ and even 30+ Ghz now, 100 Mhz then.
>> >
>> > Even with the short copper runs between signal refresh, the copper has
>> to be in good shape. Latency is pretty high along the network as a whole,
>> and that can be a problem for driverless vehicles, which would probably use
>> 802.11p to communicate with the little antennas that sit on the poles with
>> the refresh circuitry. (Where 5G is installed, cars would presumably use
>> cellular transmissions, not Ethernet 11p directly; ATT has a current test
>> on that using 4G down in San Diego.) Unless conditions are ideal, the costs
>> climb to where fiber would be easier, especially once you look at opex....
>> >
>> > I would see a lot of trouble with using this on a transmission line
>> above 880 V or even above 440 V just because the insulation and isolation
>> issues get dicey and expensive; 440V would probably be the norm, though.
>> Also, big transmission lines usually have fiber alongside anyway. But there
>> is no theoretical reason why this would not work on big DC lines, except
>> that the tower spacing is greater.
>> >
>> > We at Broadband Communities tend to think of these sorts of things in
>> business terms. If the market is big enough, the devices can be
>> multi-sourced and made cheaply. But no one solution seems ideal for huge
>> swaths of problems. These are things that bring about 5 or 10% more
>> business cases into the money. And that is GREAT! We have not talked about
>> this much at the magazine, so these opinions are my own.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Steve Ross
>> > Editor-at-Large, Broadband Communities Magazine (www.bbcmag.com
>> <http://www.bbcmag.com/>)
>> > 201-456-5933 <(201)%20456-5933> mobile
>> > 707-WOW-SSR3 (707-969-7773 <(707)%20969-7773>) Google Voice
>> > editorsteve (Facebook, LinkedIn)
>> > editorsteve1 (Twitter)
>> > steve at bbcmag.com <mailto:steve at bbcmag.com <steve at bbcmag.com>>
>> > editorsteve at gmail.com <mailto:editorsteve at gmail.com
>> <editorsteve at gmail.com>>
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:08 AM, John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com ><
>> mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com <JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>> wrote:
>> > I think you’re right. I just remember that Edison favored DC. Guess he
>> lost.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> > From: John Brown [mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com
>> <john at citylinkfiber.com> <mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com
>> <john at citylinkfiber.com>>]
>> > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 8:52 AM
>> > To: John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com ><mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com
>> <JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>>
>> > Cc: David Breecker [dba] <david at breeckerassociates.com ><
>> mailto:david at breeckerassociates.com <david at breeckerassociates.com>>>;
>> 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org ><mailto:1st-mile-nm at mailman.d
>> cn.org <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>>>
>> > Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
>> >
>> > Aren't our power grids AC ??
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 8:48 AM, John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com ><
>> mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com <JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>> wrote:
>> > I looked at this a few years ago, visiting with a former Sandia Labs
>> expert on the matter, and concluded then that the technology was nowhere
>> near acceptable in the U.S. Older power equipment in rural areas and the
>> number of transponders seemed to be just one hurdle. Signal loss is
>> another. If I recall one overriding issue, with our DC electric power grids
>> that require a power transformer every specified distance, Broadband Over
>> Powerline (BBPL) will require corrective equipment at every transformer,
>> not just at the switch and customer premise. I’m eager to see what AT&T
>> comes up with. It’ll take a deep pockets company to figure this out.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: 1st-mile-nm [mailto:1st-mile-nm-bounces at mailman.dcn.org
>> <1st-mile-nm-bounces at mailman.dcn.org> <mailto:1st-mile-nm-bounces at ma
>> ilman.dcn.org <1st-mile-nm-bounces at mailman.dcn.org>>] On Behalf Of David
>> Breecker [dba]
>> > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 2:52 PM
>> > To: 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org ><
>> mailto:1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>>>
>> > Subject: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
>> >
>> > I’m curious to know if anyone knows anything about the effectiveness of
>> this technology in its current state:
>> >
>> > https://na.smartcitiescouncil.com/article/how-internet-over-
>> power-lines-could-be-solution-underserved-communities <
>> https://na.smartcitiescouncil.com/article/how-internet-
>> over-power-lines-could-be-solution-underserved-communities>
>> >
>> > David Breecker,
>> > President
>> >
>> >
>> > David Breecker Associates
>> > www.breeckerassociates.com <http://www.breeckerassociates.com/>
>> >
>> > Santa Fe Office: 505-690-2335 <(505)%20690-2335> <tel:(505)%20690-2335>
>> > Abiquiu Office: 505-685-4891 <(505)%20685-4891> <tel:(505)%20685-4891>
>> > Skype: dbreecker
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>
> --
>
> Kurt Albershardt  |  Mimbres Communications, LLC  |  575-342-0042 <(575)%20342-0042>
>
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