[1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial

Mon Dec 18 20:56:23 PST 2017

So the conductors form a kind of half-waveguide -- perhaps more like a
quarter.  What kind of efficiency gain might this have over a free-field
PtP link?

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 12:38 PM, <frank at wmxsystems.com> wrote:

> I confess: my understanding is no deeper than the explanation John
> provides. :)  Very simply put: on a point to point microwave shot with
> Point A being one micrwave radio mounted on the top of a transmission pole
> and Point B being the receiving radio also mounted on a transmission pole
> some miles distant along the transmission line, the fresnel zone or
> concentration of the waves remains along/around the transmission line
> rather than dissipating into the atmosphere. I speculate that there is some
> optimization for this built into the radios and antennas of the backhaul
> radio system, otherwise there might be some harmful interference from the
> power lines.
>
> The transmission wires themselves do not actively carry any signals, just
> "guide" them.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
> From: John Osmon <josmon at rigozsaurus.com>
> Date: Mon, December 18, 2017 11:51 am
> To: 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>
>
> Waveguides can channel sound and electromagnetic waves -- but the
> waveguide material isn't used as a conductor. Microwave antennas
> are often connected to their transmitter/receiver via hollow tubes.
> The tubes are the waveguides.
>
> Fiber optics cables are waveguides as well.
>
> Evidently, the characteristics of the powerlines allow for guiding the
> transmissions -- but the articles I've found aren't that forthcoming
> with just how this occurs, nor how important it is to the "new" type of
> broadband over powerline.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 12:52:44PM -0500, Steve Cimelli wrote:
> > Frank: I’m not understanding statement a) below:
> >
> > uses:
> > a) wireless backhaul along power lines with power lines acting as wave
> guides
> >
> > When I think of wireless backhaul along power lines I think of
> line-of-site radio transmitter/
> > receivers placed on power poles spaced based upon the frequency,
> line-of-site, weather condition
> > requirements, etc.
> >
> > When I think of power lines acting as wave guides, I think of metal
> conductors (for power
> > tranmission) that have information coded as electromagnetic energy on
> them. Still needing
> > to deal with all of the electro-stuff that got deployed, often over
> several generations of technology
> > (fewer green-field installations one would suppose over years of
> evolution of maintenance upgrades,
> > etc.). What am I missing here?
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2017, at 12:20 PM, <frank at wmxsystems.com> <
> frank at wmxsystems.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All!
> >
> > Actually, it has nothing to do with copper/transmission/distribution
> lines. Its 5G wireless (up to 1 Gbps speeds to end user) that uses:
> > a) wireless backhaul along power lines with power lines acting as wave
> guides
> > b) last mile distribution with access points on top of power poles
> >
> > I think its very clever in that it solves:
> > a) backhaul - MUCH cheaper than fiber
> > b) last mile issues made simple given pole attachment agreements that
> AT&T has
> > c) if an autonomous vehicle will require 4 Tbps/day,how is that need
> met? Answer: from the power lines that parallel most roads
> >
> > While AT&T may have propriety vendors/patents, etc., its not rocket
> science to build a wireless network on top of a power grid (I'm thinking
> the generic "Farmers Co-op Electric" meets rural ISP = rural broadband
> problem solved). Of course there are major safety issues in that power
> linemen would have to do all installs and maintenance, and the many
> advantages of having backhaul plus poles to attach access points too
> contribute to ease of planning and deployment.
> >
> > Read more at:
> >
> > http://about.att.com/newsroom/att_to_test_delivering_multi_
> gigabit_wireless_internet_speeds_using_power_lines.html <
> http://about.att.com/newsroom/att_to_test_delivering_multi_gigabit_
> wireless_internet_speeds_using_power_lines.html>
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
> > From: John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com ><mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com
> <JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>>
> > Date: Mon, December 18, 2017 9:58 am
> > To: Steve Ross <editorsteve at gmail.com ><mailto:editorsteve at gmail.com
> <editorsteve at gmail.com>>>
> > Cc: 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org ><
> mailto:1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>>>
> >
> > Good information, thanks.
> >
> > John
> >
> > From: Steve Ross [mailto:editorsteve at gmail.com <editorsteve at gmail.com> <
> mailto:editorsteve at gmail.com <editorsteve at gmail.com>>]
> > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 9:57 AM
> > To: John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com ><mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com
> <JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>>
> > Cc: John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com ><mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com
> <john at citylinkfiber.com>>>; 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org ><
> mailto:1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>>>
> > Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
> >
> > AT&T has a big patent portfolio on this -- mainly ways to make the
> devices cheaply. The idea is to insert very high frequency signals on
> copper by clamping a transmitter on the wire, every few telephone poles
> along the line. This gets around the key problem that high frequency
> signals don't carry very far on copper. With Airgig, they get refreshed
> every few hundred feet. The (potentially) little refresh/relay devices on
> the poles would also broadcast to nearby premises and the roadway,
> replacing a physical drop.
> >
> > They also have variants that can be used on poles as needed to get
> around transformers and other devices that can screw up signals.
> >
> > This is quite different from the old BOP ideas around 2003-4 that
> inserted much lower frequency signals on devices much farther apart. We're
> talking 5+ and even 30+ Ghz now, 100 Mhz then.
> >
> > Even with the short copper runs between signal refresh, the copper has
> to be in good shape. Latency is pretty high along the network as a whole,
> and that can be a problem for driverless vehicles, which would probably use
> 802.11p to communicate with the little antennas that sit on the poles with
> the refresh circuitry. (Where 5G is installed, cars would presumably use
> cellular transmissions, not Ethernet 11p directly; ATT has a current test
> on that using 4G down in San Diego.) Unless conditions are ideal, the costs
> climb to where fiber would be easier, especially once you look at opex....
> >
> > I would see a lot of trouble with using this on a transmission line
> above 880 V or even above 440 V just because the insulation and isolation
> issues get dicey and expensive; 440V would probably be the norm, though.
> Also, big transmission lines usually have fiber alongside anyway. But there
> is no theoretical reason why this would not work on big DC lines, except
> that the tower spacing is greater.
> >
> > We at Broadband Communities tend to think of these sorts of things in
> business terms. If the market is big enough, the devices can be
> multi-sourced and made cheaply. But no one solution seems ideal for huge
> swaths of problems. These are things that bring about 5 or 10% more
> business cases into the money. And that is GREAT! We have not talked about
> this much at the magazine, so these opinions are my own.
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve Ross
> > Editor-at-Large, Broadband Communities Magazine (www.bbcmag.com <http://
> www.bbcmag.com/>)
> > 201-456-5933 <(201)%20456-5933> mobile
> > 707-WOW-SSR3 (707-969-7773 <(707)%20969-7773>) Google Voice
> > editorsteve (Facebook, LinkedIn)
> > editorsteve1 (Twitter)
> > steve at bbcmag.com <mailto:steve at bbcmag.com <steve at bbcmag.com>>
> > editorsteve at gmail.com <mailto:editorsteve at gmail.com
> <editorsteve at gmail.com>>
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:08 AM, John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com ><
> mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com <JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>> wrote:
> > I think you’re right. I just remember that Edison favored DC. Guess he
> lost.
> >
> > John
> >
> > From: John Brown [mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com <john at citylinkfiber.com>
> <mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com <john at citylinkfiber.com>>]
> > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 8:52 AM
> > To: John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com ><mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com
> <JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>>
> > Cc: David Breecker [dba] <david at breeckerassociates.com ><mailto:david@
> breeckerassociates.com <david at breeckerassociates.com>>>; 1st-Mile-NM <
> 1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org ><mailto:1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org
> <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>>>
> > Subject: Re: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
> >
> > Aren't our power grids AC ??
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 8:48 AM, John Badal <JBadal at sacred-wind.com ><
> mailto:JBadal at sacred-wind.com <JBadal at sacred-wind.com>>> wrote:
> > I looked at this a few years ago, visiting with a former Sandia Labs
> expert on the matter, and concluded then that the technology was nowhere
> near acceptable in the U.S. Older power equipment in rural areas and the
> number of transponders seemed to be just one hurdle. Signal loss is
> another. If I recall one overriding issue, with our DC electric power grids
> that require a power transformer every specified distance, Broadband Over
> Powerline (BBPL) will require corrective equipment at every transformer,
> not just at the switch and customer premise. I’m eager to see what AT&T
> comes up with. It’ll take a deep pockets company to figure this out.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> > From: 1st-mile-nm [mailto:1st-mile-nm-bounces at mailman.dcn.org
> <1st-mile-nm-bounces at mailman.dcn.org> <mailto:1st-mile-nm-bounces@
> mailman.dcn.org <1st-mile-nm-bounces at mailman.dcn.org>>] On Behalf Of
> David Breecker [dba]
> > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 2:52 PM
> > To: 1st-Mile-NM <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org ><
> mailto:1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org <1st-mile-nm at mailman.dcn.org>>>
> > Subject: [1st-mile-nm] AT&T broadband over power lines trial
> >
> > I’m curious to know if anyone knows anything about the effectiveness of
> this technology in its current state:
> >
> > https://na.smartcitiescouncil.com/article/how-internet-over-
> power-lines-could-be-solution-underserved-communities <https://na.
> smartcitiescouncil.com/article/how-internet-over-
> power-lines-could-be-solution-underserved-communities>
> >
> > David Breecker,
> > President
> >
> >
> > David Breecker Associates
> > www.breeckerassociates.com <http://www.breeckerassociates.com/>
> >
> > Santa Fe Office: 505-690-2335 <(505)%20690-2335> <tel:(505)%20690-2335>
> > Abiquiu Office: 505-685-4891 <(505)%20685-4891> <tel:(505)%20685-4891>
> > Skype: dbreecker
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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Kurt Albershardt  |  Mimbres Communications, LLC  |  575-342-0042
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